A Critique on the “Kissing Dating Goodbye” & “Courtship” Practices
This is my attempt to share some of my thoughts on “kissing dating goodbye” and “courtship” practices. I hope to give a balanced presentation. If nothing else I hope to encourage people to think about the concept and decide for themselves what is most important for them in their situation.
Note: Much of my criticism of the “kissing dating goodbye” approach is from the perspective of a single person in his 20’s and 30’s who was involved in churches where this approach was the norm. My blog pages elaborate on this and asks if “kissing dating goodbye” is appropriate for all ages. Temporarily “kissing dating goodbye” which could also be called postponing dating might be appropriate especially for younger teenagers. “Kissing dating goodbye” appears to be reactionary and going to one extreme. Lets not make the same mistake in the opposite direction.
Here are the topics that I have written about so far:
Introduction:
Starting My Blog: Should I Kiss Dating Goodbye or Kiss That Book Goodbye?
Definition of Terms: Dating, Groups & Courtship
What Is “Dating” And What Did Harris Supposedly “Kiss Goodbye?” (New 2/27/2009)
General Thoughts on Courtship/Groups:
Does Only Dating Have Defects? Courtship/Groups are Defect Free?
Black & White Thinking: Courtship Approach?
“One Size Fits All?” and Courtship/Groups
Are People Still Kissing Dating Goodbye?
Kissing Dating Goodbye Is “Harmful”: A Respected Christian Author’s View on Non-Dating/Courtship
Did Joshua Harris “Forget” His Own Church’s History With Courtship/Groups?
Examples of Foolishness That Can Happen With “Kissing Dating Goodbye” NEW ENTRY 4/18/08
Josh Harris’s Shopping Cart Illustration: Does “KDG” Just Change the Cart’s Drifting Direction?
Separation of the Sexes: Does it leave you vulnerable to control?
Josh Harris:
Josh Harris’s “Updated” View on Courtship/Groups
Josh Harris’s View On People Using His Book Legalistically
Another Look at Joshua Harris’s “Updated” Views on Kissing Dating Goodbye
What Another Leader In Sovereign Grace Ministries Teaches About Courtship & Dating: BrettDetwiler
A Response to Josh Harris’s 7 “Defects” to Dating
Courtship: Extending Parents “Protection” Beyond Home Schooling?
Issac & Rebekah’s Story: Proactive or Passive?
Universal Courtship: If so, would you be here?
A Favorite Story About The Need to Think for Yourself
A Single Man’s Struggle: Does The Courthship/Group Approach Help or Hinder?
Amazon.Com Readers Comments About the Book
You can email me at:
IKDGBnot at Yahoo.com
April 30, 2008 at 9:43 pm |
It was my observation at our SGM church that the attitudes Josh Harris preached against in “Courtship Smourtship” were alive and well…and this was at least 2 years after he preached that sermon. Actually, “alive and well” wouldn’t do it justice. The paranoia about male-female interactions and the idea that “guarding one’s heart” meant running the other direction in the face of ANY sort of attraction – those attitudes were stronger and more pervasive than ever at the SG church we attended.
I don’t think any of the folks knew of Harris’ sermon. Or, if they had, by that time they’d taken his ideas and run with them to such an extent that they’d turned the courtship system into some sort of foolproof immorality-and-heartbreak-prevention-system.
Honestly, I believe that at our SG church, anyway, courtship was more about parents who wanted to control every aspect of their children’s lives than it was about actual purity. Purity may have been one of these parents’ well-intentioned goals for their kids, but purity can be accomplished in other ways, like equipping young adults to MAKE GOOD DECISIONS, rather than setting up a bunch of stringent rules for their kids to follow…and a weird artificial process for finding a mate.
I think what disgusted me the most was to watch people’s responses to the one successful courtship at our church that had actually ended in marriage. Everybody thought that this couple had lived out the absolute ideal. Yet (and granted, I could be wrong, as I did not know this girl that well) I got the distinct feeling, from my position as an observer, that the girl in this couple was woefully ill-prepared for marriage to the young man. She seemed very stiff and uncomfortable whenever the two of them were together in public. I can’t imagine what it must have been like for her, to go from living with her parents (she was about 20, had never been to college and had never held a real job aside from giving piano lessons to some of the other kids from church) to – within a period of about 3 months – having gone through a whirlwind courtship with someone she’d hardly spent any time alone with, to being engaged, to getting married to him.
I should probably quit this rant. But courtship and the legalistic excesses that I witnessed are subjects that really get me hot under the collar, almost more than anything else within SGM. There are extremes that NOBODY could ever address in a single sermon.
May 3, 2008 at 5:31 pm |
I agree with the dangers of legalism and parents being overly protected of their children. I am not one of those. I simply see, in the teenage girls that I work with, examples of taking the opposite approach and know that this doesn’t work either.
My goal is to help families find a healthy balance – not hiding your daughters away until you find a suitable husband- simply helping young people feel empowered to make good decisions related to dating, relationships, etc. We feel that it is our job to equip our kids to live in the real world and when the time come to launch them to be productive adults. (We have now done this 5 times with great results)
Thanks for challenging me to think beyond where I have been.
May 3, 2008 at 11:09 pm |
Cindy
Thanks for your compliment on this. My goal here is to get single Christians ant their parents (for younger singles) to think for themselves what part of this is wisdom and what part is foolishness vs. just taking a herd mentality. There are times when it is wisdom and other times foolishness.
Kris
Thanks for your comment. I am also going to post your comment on the blog page you were commenting on.
May 8, 2008 at 1:28 pm |
With four daughters and one son…we’ve found this topic challenging, to say the least, as they are all so different and unique. One may not show any (or little ) interest in the opposite sex at age 16….and another may seem to through themselves at the opposite sex, sneaking to see them, hiding encounters with them, texting, e-mailing, phoning, finding way to hook up when they are supposed to be doing x/y/z….etc….
We’ve chosen the “no dating” approach, but do strongly encourage mixed group activities and close friendships. For a couple of ours, it seems to be a social pressure to “have someone”… “All my girlfriends have a boy friend…” and “I’m the only one left out”…is a very powerful, yet shallow, motivation. And, no matter how much you attempt to uncover and review at the real reason(s) for one “wanting a friend” of the opposite sex, with a couple of our kids, this draw / need / pressure is great.
One of the most difficult factors to deal with is the fact that so many parents have seemingly little or no restrictions in the area of boy-girl relationships….and our kids then feel they are “the only ones” not allowed to do what they want, when they want, with whom they want…etc…
Where’s the real balance?
Fathers….who do you want your 16 year old daughter(s) kissed by? Who do you want them snuggling with? How many young men do you want to enjoy these types of moments with your daughter(s) before they identify the man for their lifetime (spouse)? Are you comfortable with your 15 and 16 years old daughters being intimately handled (I’m not necessarily meaning physically /sexually touched, but kissed passionately / snuggled with / cuddled with / held close in intimate ways) ? Where is your comfort zone as a dad? How are your daughters to hold “a line” at any one point in this type of intimate activity. A kiss can be a pretty potent and powerful thing!
Josh’s book really isn’t all that out of line in my mind, but maybe you’ll disagree.
Respectfully….and with great love for my daughters…
jeff
May 8, 2008 at 4:33 pm |
Jeff
Thanks for your comments. The “kissing dating goodbye” (for a season) might be appropriate for your daughters at their age. As they mature the approach should change.
Have you read some of of my posts such as “One Size Fits All?” My problem with “kissing dating goodbye” is that I have seen it pushed on much older single adults. Harris was young when he wrote about what worked for him. I don’t understand why so many think that what worked for him should be applicable to all ages. Harris also fails to acknowledge the history and problems with the system he promotes.
Unfortunately Joshua Harris doesn’t make this point in his book. One would think that it applies to all ages etc. Harris also doesn’t distinguish between doing things occasionally with someone of the opposite sex as a friend vs. a longer term relationship.
In summary, I think that there is both wisdom and foolishness in the concept. Unfortunately Harris left out the foolish aspects of his book.
May 9, 2008 at 7:57 am |
Thank you for your response. Foolish is a very potent word… One may certainly disagree with someone else’s position(s), but to call them foolish might be a bit over the top. Maybe?
I’m certainly not the last word on dating / intimate relationships / romantic involvements / etc….but it is unequivocally clear to me that one’s heart must be wholly focused on the Lord and His will for their lives before one should allow themselves to enter “a friendship” that goes beyond the everyday general friendship encounter. Guarding one’s heart romantically is only done well as one’s heart is given over to the Lord, completely, without reservation.
I guess one needs to tailor their approach to the individual…with regard to boy-girl / man-woman relationships…especially as they are maturing in their teens and are still under the authority / responsibility of their parents.
His Peace,
Jeff
May 9, 2008 at 4:14 pm |
Jeff
Foolishness might be a potent word but was the opposite of wisdom. I am not sure what else I would call foolishness when I see older single adults in their late 20’s and older that are afraid of each other. This includes these single adults not being able to have general friendship encounters. Hence the term wisdom or foolishness. I am also asking in the title if it is wisdom or foolishness.
Also, when one looks at the history of this approach and how it was implemented to extremes foolish sure seems an appropriate word. I can also think of some extreme words for Harris not sharing the defects of his approach and the historical problems of his approach.
Tailoring one’s approach is quite appropriate. If nothing else, this blog will help someone think and decide what is right for them in their situation vs. copying a system that worked for a specific 19 year old male for his personal situation. Too many people have just accepted this as the better way without thinking it through; this especially seemed to happened right after the book was published and the “fad” it created.
June 14, 2008 at 12:44 am |
I think Joshua Harris is just being pro to God and so all of his principles depended on His will.
June 15, 2008 at 12:29 am |
Yamii,
Could you please clarify what you mean by, “so all of his principles depended on His will”?
June 16, 2008 at 6:14 am |
Oh sorry, I misunderstood… hehehehe.. God bless!
February 4, 2010 at 12:57 pm |
Yammi, neither of your comments made much sense.
June 18, 2008 at 9:20 am |
I have five daughters (and three sons, but the emphasis seems to be on the daughters here for some odd reason.) They are allowed to date. They have also been prepared with talks and our examples. The younger ones also have the examples of their older siblings.
Two of my daughters are married. We love both of our sons in law with all our hearts. We wouldn’t, however, have chosen these men to be our daughter’s husbands! It would have been pure arrogance on our part to suppose we could have chosen better husbands for our daughters than they would have been able to choose for themselves. Seriously, we’re good, but we’re not *that* good.
Now, our son is in a serious relationship but everyone in the family right down to the grandparents simply loves this girl.
Quote from Jeff [quote] Fathers….who do you want your 16 year old daughter(s) kissed by? Who do you want them snuggling with? How many young men do you want to enjoy these types of moments with your daughter(s) before they identify the man for their lifetime (spouse)? Are you comfortable with your 15 and 16 years old daughters being intimately handled (I’m not necessarily meaning physically /sexually touched, but kissed passionately / snuggled with / cuddled with / held close in intimate ways) ? Where is your comfort zone as a dad? How are your daughters to hold “a line” at any one point in this type of intimate activity. A kiss can be a pretty potent and powerful thing!
[/quote]
Jeff, there are times when a parent needs to trust their children and trust the things they were taught sunk in. This is also the time they’re being entrusted to drive; these are unnerving times for parents. Mixed in with that is a healthy repulsion to think of our children as sexual beings. I bellieve this natural repulsion is protective but, again, unnerving.
June 19, 2008 at 10:24 pm |
DB
Welcome to the blog. You make some good points. Teenagers do need to grow and learn some things. Maybe training wheels and guidance are important but they do need to grow up.
Steve
July 11, 2008 at 4:54 pm |
The Lord showed me long ago — when you read a book, remember it is the writers personal tesitimony — what happened when they sought the Lord for His wisdom concerning their situation. He is a personal God. When we preach our personal convictions as biblical truth, it is legalism. God’s will is the picture, the outline the Word of God, and He will personally guide us as to what colors to fill it in with. I know that people are so excited when they see God work so miraculously in their lives, that they want to “help” others to be blessed too. In that excitement, and maybe sometimes, pride, they may be too quick to tell other’s how it’s done.
October 14, 2009 at 3:36 pm |
Smart level-headed gal! I had a similar thought that I argued with my ex-girlfriend several years back when I first read through I Kissed Dating Goodbye (after having reading Boundaries in Dating). I also read Choosing God’s Best. I thought that perhaps in Joshua Harris’s experience, it was best for him to stop dating for a while. He had already had some growing experiences within dating relationships that he realized were unhealthy and too physical or too emotionally involved, that may have left a foul taste in his mouth. That was his “personal testimony,” as Fran says, his experience. For those who hold to this philosophy, never having dated, only hanging out in college groups,” may continue to remain in an immature state, as I had until my mid-20s. Let’s think like adults, not children, and walk in Grace, rather than the Law. But it’s true, as Cloud & Townsend suggest in Boundaries in Dating, good positive dating is “No kids allowed.”
October 16, 2009 at 7:33 am
I tend to agree for the most part, Joe, with all you ahve said. However, I do feel like our youth might best be served by group dates organized by a Bible-believing church rather than launching into courting, which seems to be just as “serious” (long-term oriented) as dating, but less effective or sensible.
I think our youth need to avoid exclusive, committed relationships until they’ve had time to learn about how to interact with the opposite sex in a Biblical and effective manner. That, I think, would be best able to happen in church events that foster supervised, group dating scenarios designed to prepare them for flying solo when they are mature enough.
This is just an idea, and I am not saying it’s a Bible mandate, btw. I agree: people shouldn’t preach their theories on dating as Bible-mandated.
July 15, 2008 at 4:04 pm |
Some people might enjoy reading a MARRY romp through the Bible:
Biblical Ways of Knowing She’s The One. my tongue in cheek view of Biblical relationships.
http://www.savvysinglechristian.blogspot.com/2007/09/biblical-ways-of-knowing-shes-one
I posted some comments throughout some of your posts. I’m glad you’re talking about this.
July 16, 2008 at 9:50 pm |
Savvy D
Welcome to my blog and thanks for your comments. When I get time I am going to take a look through your blog more.
Steve
July 20, 2008 at 7:56 pm |
Kris,
I’m a member of the SG church in Gaithersburg, and was in the congregation when Josh’s famous “Courtship Smourtship” was preached. I know Josh personally, and I just want you to know that he has a heart for the Gospel above all things. While the result of “courtship” has been a list of arbitrary rules and regulations that bind people seeking a mate, it was never intended that way. It was (I believe) intended as an example of what a God-honoring relationship should be, NOT as a formula for how things must be done. Also, I gave my life to Christ in the church, and there is no other place I’d rather be.
With that said, here at ground-zero, the EXACT things that were being preached against were hard at work, and to a large extent still are. Male/Female interactions reached the point of being so awkward that the thought of getting into a serious relationship can seem almost unbearable. Legalism about the whole “courtship” process takes some of those pressures to the extreme. Most of it really is nothing more than the socially acceptable platform for gossip and meddling in the business of others, all done under the guise of guarding hearts, purity, and the like.
I know of several relationships that were under excessive pressure, and one taken to the brink of ending because of what went on. Someone very close to me swore to NEVER enter into a relationship with anyone from the church because of the legalism that surrounds relationships, and when this person finally did (with another member of the church), the relationship stayed completely hidden from sight for months, and when it did come to light it did so only under the watchful eyes of mature people and pastors. All others were litterally forced out.
There is a useful example here. I was told to my face to tend to my own biz (which I gladly did). This couple had no problems because they sought wise counsel from pastors and mature people, and made it very clear that the nosy people around them had best find something else to amuse themselves with. So you can certainly stand up for yourself when someone becomes the “uninvited guest” in your relationship.
July 21, 2008 at 12:57 am |
Derek
Thanks for your comment and sharing about the situation at the Sovereign Grace Ministries “flagship” church. It is sad that things that Josh Harris taught against and tried to correct with a few messages are still significant problems in his church.
This just goes to show that a few messages aren’t nearly enough to correct problems that have developed in the culture over years. I am sure Joshua Harris means well and meant well.
Thanks again.
Steve
July 23, 2008 at 8:10 pm |
Well one thing is definite, Harris’s heart is in the right place, I am only coming up for 18 myself so I do not claim to be an expert, but I have seen The havok lots of dating within a youth group can acheive and I have no doubt that some of the principles he teaches could have been a huge Help. For while I tryed to help the situation and remind people that wisdom was required however it didn’t work out for the best and put the youth group under alot of stress and division. However the legalistic nature by which some people take this book is ridiculous. Despite the book having no publicity in scotland I myself have felt a bit of a sting from the same views.
In my church I have been friends with a girl since … I was something like 6 days old. and we have literally grown up together… but some of those in the church have seen us having conversations without other people there (oh shock horror <_<) and rumours are a common symptom.
I myself hold to the dating philosophy that for every rule thats made there are so many exceptions that the rules become pointless in the end. And so use guidelines and proverbial rules that I handle with what little wisdom I have and the wisdom that I nick from God. I learn my boundaries and I avoid situations that will cause me to fall but do not avoid woman.
To be honest wisdom is one of the most vital components to a successfull relationship… which is why teenagers usually … fail. And why it should be dealt with properlly, but not avoided.
Daniel Kelly
danielskelly@talktalk.net
July 24, 2008 at 11:12 pm |
Suitman
Welcome to my blog and thanks for your comment.
Joshua Harris wrote his book in his late teens and wrote about something that worked for him as a teenager. Thus as a teenager kissing goodbye or at least postponing might be a good thing. You might want to read my blog entry about one size fits all. There I question whether what Harris wrote applies to all ages. Unfortunately so many people assumed that what worked for a teenager works for all ages.
I don’t doubt Harris has the right heart but some times good intentions don’t produce the right results. He wrote his book as a quasi testimonial which leaves a lot of holes in the presentation. These holes include not sharing the problems that have occurred with his approach including at the church he is now the senior pastor at.
Welcome again to the blog.
July 28, 2008 at 9:51 pm |
hmm…after reading thru all the comments here. i agree with jeff, derek420 and suitman though i really think that your blog is a good avenue for people to read and expand their minds to think futher.
personally i dont believe that there’s a perfect writer and no one can write something about everything and anything for everyone. i totally agree that i kissed dating goodbye applies well for for teenagers but older singles as jeff says can tailor them to their needs. i also believe that Josh Harris did not write it as a guideline that those who read should follow them strictly but he wrote it plainly to give an idea to singles out there of what a pleasing boy-girl relationship is like in God’s eyes. at the end of the day, it’s still up to the readers to decide for themselves whether they want to take lessons from it or not.
so yea…that’s my point of view.
July 28, 2008 at 11:13 pm |
Ivy
Thanks for your comments. I am glad you agree with a lot of what I and others say here.
Yes there is no perfect writer and writers do make mistakes even with the best of intentions.
A big criticism I have of Harris is that with the unintentional mistakes he may have made with the book, I don’t see a lot of action to try and correct this. For example read my post “What Problems Joshua Harris Acknowledged About How Singles Relate At His Church (But Doesn’t Share on His Website) ”
Harris could do a lot more to correct abuses but for some reason chooses not to. If you read my latest post about what another SGM leader taught then maybe Harris is between a rock and hard place with other leadership in Sovereign Grace Ministries.
August 4, 2008 at 7:07 am |
Thanks for your hard work on this issue. After 13 years in singles ministry, I find that few will even attempt an alternative to “dating”. I have observed that many singles do not attempt celibacy, do not limit their dating to believers, etc. We had three wedding showers this summer. All had met a non-christian, become pregnant and had a baby. Then they got “around to” marriage. Still, no Christian man in the picture. So, any strategy is an improvement. SGM actually reminds me of the Maranantha church of the 70″s where the individuals had to individually approach the pastor about who they were attracted to. When he saw a good match, he would bless them and they could date.
August 4, 2008 at 9:18 am |
Jim
Welcome to the blog. I agree that there can be many problems associated with dating. One does need to make sure that we don’t react to these problems by going to the opposite extreme as it appears many do when using the “kissing dating goodbye” philosophy.
Harris wrote his book based on his experiences as a teenager since he was 21 when he wrote the book. People reading that should take that into account more than they seem to to do, especially when they think this should apply to singles of all ages.
August 7, 2008 at 1:55 am |
Derek–secret relationships? I don’t recommend those either. It can be just as dangerous to keep a relationship hidden as it is to tell the whole world everything. There has to be some middle road in here. I date to get to know someone better. Some say I date too much, but if someone else asks me out, I might go so I can get to know him better before I decide to accept another date. A date means an appointment.
Dating is any social activity performed as a pair or even a group with the aim of each assessing the other’s suitability as their partner in an intimate relationship or as a spouse. The word refers to the act of agreeing on a time and “date” when a pair can meet and engage in some social activity.
In many cultural traditions, dates are arranged by a third party, who may be a family member, an acquaintance, or a dedicated matchmaker.
August 22, 2008 at 7:10 am |
What it seems to boil down to is that for conscientious Christians, seeking a mate borders on insanity.
I’m 43, never-married, and was not raised in a church that practiced this courting/betrothal/kissing dating goodbye stuff. It’s all pretty new to me.
The idea — which Ted Slater and Boundless have endorsed — that courtship principles are applicable to all ages, even to middle-aged professionals who moved away from their parents’ homes years ago, is flabbergasting.
Seriously — I have to have the pastors and my (and her) parents breathing down our necks when we’re old enough to be the parents of teens ourselves? The same people who are desperate to get Christians to marry are making the process so burdensome and repulsive to self-respecting adults that a lot of us would rather just leave it alone than submit to legalistic nonsense.
February 4, 2010 at 1:03 pm |
Insanity? I’ll give you insanity when KDG gets factored into the mix:
I’m 54 years old. Never married (though I sure longed to be, women never found me attractive). My parents are dead. According to KDG courting dogma, Who The Hell Will Arrange My Marriage For Me?
September 2, 2008 at 8:24 am |
Interesting article and interesting posts, as today is the first times I had heard about the problems within SGM I can’t really comment on what happened there. However most of the people from the church I attend within my peer group (20yrs old) did read the book and I think it would have been a positive thing if some of them had taken the lessons more to heart rather than telling everyone that they were courting without changing anything about their relationships.
Indeed the fact that boy/girl contact remains too free has caused a lot of problems within the church and a few pointed sermons. I am not saying by the way that people are breaking a strict rules system but rather they appear to be missing a few salient passages in the Bible.
I think Joshua raises some good points in his book and the sequel (I am a little surprised that it hasn’t been mentioned as I thought it laid out a much better foundation than IKDG did). And with everything of this nature one must vet all “christian” books through the lenses of scripture and ensure that one only acts upon convictions that are biblically based.
My closest friend happens to be female, and having known her since I was 6 there is nothing wrong with that relationship, however I do get sick of the comments and rumours spread whenever I go to her church by those who don’t know the history. As Derek says sometime older people outside of those in the ‘know’ i.e. parents, etc should realy mind their own business and stop fueling the problem.
Thats my two bobs worth and I’ll leave you to it. Thanks for the blog.
November 13, 2008 at 8:54 pm |
Hello,
Thanks for the comment on my blog. I have looked at a couple of your and can agree with some onf your findings.
On my blog, I posted the text from “I kissed dating godbye” as the hard copy to notes I presented in a bible study.
I do agree with with Mr. Harris that most people are not ready to date, and therefore need to be done with “dating” in the normal/ traditional sense…. But more importantly, I think there is more significant question Joshua Harris raises that the dating issue itself. The question is..if we are dating in the traditional sense can we glorify God through a system (dating) that is inherently selfish in its origin?….
November 15, 2008 at 7:20 pm |
Min C
Welcome to my blog. I wouldn’t necessarily say that dating is inherently selfish in its origin. People can use dating in a selfish way or in a way thinking about others.
One thing that Harris doesn’t seem to differentiate with dating is long term vs. short term, i.e. two people going out as friends vs. a couple that get into a committed relationship even if it is more of a short term going together situation.
Many parents use courtship to control their children but I wouldn’t say that it was set up with that intention by all people using it.
One of the main purposes of my blog is to share the problems courtship/groups have created. Most who push courtship aren’t willing to admit the defects and problems with courtship.
November 20, 2008 at 4:25 am |
hi steve,
I am not sure if this sounds right.
But as a reader of the book, I feel that the advice that Josh has dished out is pretty useful, especially for us the youths. Yes, I understand that the book’s radical ideas might not be for everyone, and sometimes for older adults the ideas might seemed irelevant. but do not forget that he has another book titled Boy Meets Girl, in which he teached the proper ways of starting a relationship.
I feel that personally, the book has some pretty good ideas and it helped me.
and these are just my ideas, not to force them on anyone or whatsoever.
Thanks for setting up this blog.
November 21, 2008 at 2:50 pm |
dinnie
Thanks for your comments.
The title of my blog says a lot. Harris’s book has both wisdom and foolishness. Unfortunately Harris hasn’t acknowledged the problems the approach he promotes has caused.
It is sad that he has never shared this on a broad basis like his book was. These problems have even occurred in the church Harris now pastors and has been their practice for the last 30 years. Not acknowledging these problems sets people up for failure IMO.
I do hope that this blog helps people at least bring up when there are problems if they choose this approach and make adjustments vs. just walking around silent and
You might want to take a look at my definitions page. The courtship system that his church now promotes seems strange in that you have to spend time getting to know the father before you can even spend time courting the young lady.
I would also be careful of patters or a method such as the term “right way” of starting a relationship. There isn’t always one way that God has all follow in this area.
Welcome again and thanks for your compliment.
December 9, 2008 at 7:31 pm |
Steve, thanks for sharing. It was interesting to see the extent to which you’ve paid attention to this issue. I’ve been lucky enough to avoid too much personal contact with the IKDG clan, and intend to keep it that way.
December 16, 2008 at 7:49 pm |
As a guy in his 20’s I would still agree with Harris and his book. I have never dated and I do not intend to date until I am ready to get married. I think Harris’ point was not that people shouldn’t date, but that they should hold off on dating until they are absolutely ready to marry. I read that book when I was 17ish so it was quite a few years ago when I read it, but I would not change my decision on dating. Courtship and group dating is a much better approach, in my opinion, because of the aforementioned. Parents have a chance to meet and see their children’s choices on a mate and there is not that added pressure to actually have a boyfriend or girlfriend and with group dating it’s not really dating because everyone is just hanging out, having fun and enjoying each others company without feeling like you have to appease to the other person. That’s just my opinion. Thanks for the critique though.
December 17, 2008 at 4:38 pm |
Stephen
Thanks for your comment.
I would urge you to read all of the entries of my blog. As you may find, IMO their is both wisdom and foolishness in “kissing dating goodbye.” Make sure your agreement is based on what results you see vs. what someone might tell you.
Unfortunately those who promote “kissing dating goodbye” as well as courtship don’t acknowledge the problems that their approach causes or has caused over the years. Harris’s approach has caused a number of problems in the church he is now Sr. Pastor of but even these problems aren’t shared and rarely acknowledeged. One big concern is that it many times teach single to avoid relating with those of the opposite sex vs. learning how to properly relate.
One distinction that Harris doesn’t make is between short term dating and long term dating. I would tend to agree with him that long term dating without a purpose doesn’t make sense but I do see value in short term dating of someone of the opposite sex. It can offer many benefits and learning experiences.
If this blog does nothing else than makes one think vs. blindly accept what someone else says about “kissing dating goodbye” including realizing the guidelines might vary with age and maturity then it serves a good purpose. Sometimes when one sees a problem with one approach the “answer” seems to be to react vs. respond. Many times “kissing dating goodbye” is reactionary vs. responding.
January 8, 2009 at 9:29 am |
Is this ubercontrolling teaching contributing to abuse within courtship churches?
http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/
This story begs the question.
February 4, 2010 at 1:07 pm |
I find it worthy of South Park that a group calling itself “Sovereign Grace Ministries” acts as micromanaging/legalistic as Extreme Shari’a.
January 8, 2009 at 2:50 pm |
Debra
I have read and been a part of the above blog for quite a while. The latest entry on that blog and what happened to the 3 year old child is really sad.
You ask a good question. I will have to think about this but it is my guess is that the teaching of “kissing dating goodbye” is more of a symptom than a contributor. Of course one type of control can feed an justify another type of control.
Welcome to my blog.
Steve
January 13, 2009 at 3:39 pm |
Hey Steve,
First, thank you for taking the time to comment to our blog in reply to our entry, “What is ‘dating’ anyway?” Those wishing to see Steve’s comment and our article may use the following link:
http://appliedtruthandinterest.blogspot.com/2009/01/what-is-dating-anyway.html
I find your site to be very interesting, and it zeroes in specifically on a topic we only just touched on at our blog, “Applied Truth & Interest” or, simply, “ATI” (http://appliedtruthandinterest.blogspot.com). That issue being Mr. Harris’ views on dating.
Personally, I respect Mr. Harris and believe he is very well-intended. However, I also feel he is misguided, that his approach fails completely with adults, and provides little hope of helping those younger Christians learn how to date before going off to college or a career. Abandoning dating is not the answer. Rather, we need to teach our youth how to date from a Biblical perspective, with appropriate consideration given to their ages. The modern trend to villify dating is detrimental to our youth. Instead of teaching them to avoid dating, we should remind them that dating is just spending time with someone of the opposite sex, getting to know each other. It is not a relationship or a physical encounter.
A date is a one-time event. Dating is, simply, the practice of going on dates. Whether a date leads to a 2nd date, a 3rd date, or to a commitment, be it a relationship or marriage, depends on what you learn on that date. “Do I want to explore a commitment with this person?” “Is this the sort of person the Lord would be pleased to see me marry?” “How can I honor God while dating?” Addressing questions like these is a reasonable way to start discovering what dating from a Christian perspective means.
Now a shameless plug for our blog: its point is taking God’s truth, revealed in the Bible, and addressing it to a wide range of topics, questions, concerns, and interests relevant to Christians who are saved but don’t know where to go from there. The Church has a bad habit of bringing people to the cross, dropping them off, then leaving them to figure out what comes next all on their own. Our blog is here to help (at least, that is the goal). The truth is His, and the interest is ours.
It began with just me, John, but now we have a second dedicated writer on board. Also, we have sent out invitations to guest writers. We discuss dating, true religion, Heaven, politics, the law, and more, all from a Biblical perspective. We’re new, so we need you to help us grow!
Peace and love in Christ,
John
January 13, 2009 at 9:13 pm |
John
Welcome to my blog and thanks for your compliment. I am enjoying the discussion we are having on your blog about dating.
If I do nothing more than help singles think about what is best for them vs. blindly follow one person’s teaching about “kissing dating goodbye” than my blog has served its purpose. Like you I feel Harris means well with what he wrote. His book was more of a testimonial on how “kissing dating goodbye” worked well for him. Why people assumed what he wrote should apply to all people to be done the same way baffles me.
One thing that seems to be the rule with people promoting “kissing dating goodbye” is that there seems to be little thinking for themselves including questioning. Also, those who promote IKDG rarely seem to want to admit the the problems it causes or has caused.
Welcome again and I am looking forward to additional discussions on this topic.
February 11, 2009 at 3:01 pm |
I am truly happy to have found this blog. Searching around for varying opinions on “I Kissed Dating Goodby” tends to go from the extreme view of “his opinions are THE ONLY BIBLICAL WAY” to “I could care less, I’ll do what I want!” And this really upset me, because I saw quite a lot of legalistic and overly-controlling tendancies in his book, yet I don’t think throwing oneself head-long into the secular dating world is the right way to live, either.
I will admit that I initially had a knee-jerk reaction to the book and the idea of courting, becuase I like the idea of dating– hanging out one-on-one with friends/someone I might become interested in/someone I AM interested in. And I’ve always believed (and trust) that I tend to have good judgement in regards to my actions and what is just setting myself up for temptations and what isn’t. I guess my initial response was anger at being told that I wasn’t capable of “drawing my own lines” or using my own common-sense in a dating relationship.
But I just felt like I couldn’t question his advice because it just seemed so biblical, and if this is how it was done then shouldn’t it also be continued now? I’ve been looking into culture versus Christian values a lot lately– but within other settings. Such as “what sort of music can be played in church”. Our traditional culture tells us it has to be “classical hyms” but the newer culture has more pop/rock/modern music. Is either un-Christian or more Christian than the other? I would say no, because our culture and not our religion determines our musical taste.
And within the last couple of days I’ve been wondering if the idea of “dating versus courtship” could also be an issue of culture. The idea specifically came up when I read an article on “bethrothal” and how THIS was truly the only biblical way. And it’s right– courtship is more of a “victorian era” style of marriage, NOT the biblical one. It is something that was influenced by the culture at the time. I think that Christians can adopt the “dating culture” of today, while apply Christian values, and still call the process a Christian one. God does not dictate what our fashions need to be (but He does say they should be modest), He does not say what musical instruments are best for worship of Him, He does not say that our houses have to be built in a certain way (although He does say they must be safe– levitical law) so why do we assume that the way of arranging marriages must stay the same? The Christian values (modesty and safety) can be applied to the cultural “system” and still be Christian.
I think including ones family in the decision making is important and I also think it is important that a couple truly think through their reasons for marriage, but imposing these rules and saying “it’s biblical” can be misleading. Yes, these relationships may lead to too much physical intimacy, but what cost is this man/woman segregation causing? I don’t want to imply that sex before marriage is somehow better or worth it if this fear of the opposite sex is eliminated, but at the same time this repression of feelings isn’t healthy and likely to lead to other problems down the line. There needs to be a “comprimise” of sorts. The same with the emotional concerns people have, and the phrase “emotional promiscuity”. The idea seems to be that so long as people don’t become emotionally attached before their marriage they can’t be hurt, but is living in a bubble justified? So many “non-romantic” relationships can leave people hurting. Family members and close friends are people we love, are emotionally intimate with and trust– yet they have just as much of a chance of “just leaving” us or betraying us as any boyfriend/girlfriend. Heck, even ones husband isn’t exempt from this possibility. I just don’t see it justifying the idea that we shouldn’t attach ourselves emotionally until we are married– the idea just doesn’t seem right to me.
February 13, 2009 at 10:18 pm |
Emily
Welcome to my blog. I am glad that you see I am trying to do a fair analysis of the concept of “kissing dating goodbye.”
Unfortunately in a lot of groups the ideas of courtship and doing things in groups becomes unassailable when they are promoted as the “biblical” way to do something.
Thanks again.
February 28, 2009 at 8:56 pm |
Hi Steve. Thanks for visiting my blog. I will keep all the issues that you pointed out in mind while I read the book.
Blesssings,
Victoria
March 20, 2009 at 1:13 pm |
I havent seen your blog bc i dont know you ,but thanks for visiting mine… I believe Harris’ book is pretty good. It all depends on your own point of view. I choose to “Kiss daitng goodbye,” because I know i wouldn’t feel at peace if i get in a relationship now. I want to be so in love with God that nothing nor anyone will distract me. I have always had that mentality even before reading Harris’ book, but who knows maybe God will send me a person before i turn 21 lol or maybe not, but what i do know in my heart is that He will let me know when is the right time until that I will seek Him.
March 20, 2009 at 4:31 pm |
Genesis
Welcome to my blog. If you read my blog, you will find entries where I suggest that “kissing dating goodbye” might be appropriate for teenagers.
Thus is might be that you are temporarily “kissing dating goodbye” or maybe postponing dating till you are a little older.
Each person has to make their own decision about dating.
April 9, 2009 at 6:31 am |
I find Harris’ analogy of the pulling cart … in a china store… not only that but the aisles are narrow, to pretty much say he does not accept dating as any kind of option.
What people who support this don’t realize is the affect of his book spreading outside groups that have always done group dating and courtship had a terrible affect on those of us who grew up at the time.
Our church had not taken that kind of a stand. My parents raised me to be pure and that dates were acceptable, but I should only date someone who was a Christian…
All the parents of the girls at my church latched onto the movement as a way to keep their girls pure, by them saying they were not dating. They could have maned up as Dad’s and have to say to me as a MAN THEY were not allowing their daughter to date.
That left all the guys who thought the basic premise, “Some day when I’m ready my prince will come and court me,” was pie in the sky after reading how poorly I kissed dating goodbye and boy meets girl explained things, with no Christian girls to date who cared about their purity let alone ours.
The worst part is there is no infrastructure supporting this. If I’m supposed to be some girls prince how am I to know where to find her that she is a single Christian and that I have to court her.
I don’t trust God to micromanage every life and I didn’t at 16. God wasn’t the one setting up marriages by uma and thumin, people were finding whoever they could.
As a single now in a Church with few single females near my age I would love to pick a fight with some of those idealists.
Every girl I knew from church gave up courtship in college or when they found the guy they WANTED.
Funny how that works. The only people I’ve met who are still serious about courtship are people who are starting to feel disillusioned.
Joshua Harris doomed these people to a system that if they are not at a church that preaches courtship is strange to all but the most persistent suitors.
Now he doesn’t want to own up to the pain and problems his books have caused by him not waiting till he had a full solution. He should have known not all Christians would start practicing this system.
Now he has detractors like me who frankly pray to God for justice for what he did to us and our generation.
DieM
April 13, 2009 at 6:01 am |
DieM
Welcome to my blog and sorry for the late welcome. It is sad reading about the problems that you shared “kissing dating goodbye” created in your experience. Unfortunately, in my experience, most of those who promote the “kissing goodbye mentality” never admit or come to terms with the problems that it causes. It isn’t the perfect or clearly better approach it usually is made out to be by those who promote it. It has its own problems.
My take on it is that it is an approach that was more designed for teenagers vs. older adults at best.
Welcome again.
Steve
April 22, 2009 at 2:30 am |
hi everyone!..
hmmm well not all problems are based on dating itself or having bf/gf or husband/wife etc.. it could be related to your own insecurities too.. hatred towards self that could lead to detructive relationship.
hmm im just wondering why is it so important to talk about this book i kissed dating goodbye.. etc.. blah blah blah-ing about his work.. if u think u cant trust the book…
hmmm…then what is the Holy Spirit for? Didnt God said trust Him.. seek him first the kingdom of God and everything shall be added unto you?
God is BIG.. He is almighty.. ask him.. he is the one who created u and me.. if u dont like the idea of i kissed dating goodbye…. then why not ask God, who created all things in the first place?!?!
well im not putting everyone down.. just that i feel there’s not need to make a big hoo haa about all this.. when there is much simple way to discern in Godly manner… God Bless…
April 22, 2009 at 7:38 am |
Janice
Welcome to my blog. One of my biggest purposes of setting up this blog is to expose the other side of “kissing dating goodbye.” IMO, the book Harris wrote shared all the pros of “kissing dating goodbye” but didn’t share the various problems that it has caused over the years, including problems in Harris’s own church.
Stating this another way, those that promote “kissing dating goodbye” are quick to point out all the “defects” of dating but won’t admit the problems with their “alternative.”
Also, what may be appropriate for teenagers (age Josh Harris used to base his writing) isn’t appropriate and sometimes detrimental for older singles.
Thus I feel it is good that people realize the whole truth about “kissing dating goodbye.”
Welcome again.
Steve
May 23, 2009 at 9:50 pm |
From my own experience of a courtship gone disastrously awry, I can say that I am very much against courtship and would say I am more for “smart dating.” Really, if you read Joshua Harris’ second book, you find that his ideas did not really work for him 100%, either. I think this is given with good intentions, but the same imperfect people that date turn into the imperfect people that court when they find something they think is “better.”
I wasn’t really allowed to date in high school, and my parents pushed me more for courtship. What they didn’t think of, and what I don’t think most parents realize, is that it is BETTER if your kids are learning how to navigate the romantic playing field while they are still at home where parents can better guide them into making smart choices. My boyfriend was easily able to fool me into thinking he was a great guy because I was so naive. He was easily able to fool my parents because he rarely saw them. We got married, and our marriage fell completely apart 3 years and 1 baby later after he decided it would be fun to share his wife with his friends. So courtship/purity before marriage in NO way guarantees that you’re marrying a nice, pure guy who has only your best interests at heart. I think a moderate, “smart dating” approach is probably a better way to go for most people.
It’s actually an INCREDIBLY long story. I could write my own book. I am the poster child for why purity and courting isn’t always the way to go. . .
May 25, 2009 at 7:42 pm |
lauralee
Welcome to my blog. I have read some of your blog entries and what happened to you is a sad story of betrayal by your husband.
One of my biggest concerns with courtship is that those who promote are quick to share all the defects they see with dating but seem to ignore and be silent about all the problems that courtship has caused over the years. Welcome again.
June 1, 2009 at 7:07 am |
Steve,
I saw that you left a comment on my blog and came over here to check you out like you suggested. I don’t have a lot of time, unfortunately, to read all of the articles which you referenced back to in this entry. On my blog you addressed that kissing dating goodbye and having courtship as an alternative may be fine for younger people but possibly counterproductive for older singles. I am sure this is a valid point, but I’ve never thought about it because I will still be considered young for a long time. Are there a couple specific articles that you have linked to here that I could read to see your point a little better? And how do you define “older”? 25? 30? What parts of courtship do you consider counterproductive?
I certainly do not agree with everything that Josh Harris preaches, but I think, to a degree, he has good theory when it comes to this topic. Have you ever read anything by Eric and Leslie Ludy? I like their perspectives better, actually.
June 3, 2009 at 8:05 am |
Jessica
Welcome to my blog.
What age things change will depend on each specific person. My general thought is that the “kissing dating goodbye” approach is more designed for teenagers vs. older singles.
Most of the links above are pretty short so aren’t long articles to read. I would suggest you read the “One Size Fits All?” article. Also “What Is “Dating” And What Did Harris Supposedly “Kiss Goodbye?” for starters.
Dating can mean a lot of things. Even Harris was more concerned on one type of “dating.” Many take his approach as meaning that all forms of “dating” are wrong.
Hope this helps.
June 18, 2009 at 3:19 am |
Interesting blog. I do agree that courtship is not for everyone, but I can definitely see Josh’s good intentions in the book. Everyone is different, and I think he does state that in his book – just remember he is also human, and at the end of the day we must look back into God’s Word to see what He says: maybe if the day comes that a guy wants to pursue a relationship with me we might go the dating route or not … it’s just a good book to think seriously about relationships and not as flings (as the world does). Cool blog though.
September 9, 2009 at 2:01 am |
Steve,
Thanks for the comments on my site. It has been sometime since I have actually read the book, but I do remember discussing it many times with youth group members and various friends. I can remember thinking that this guy has some good ideas, but not all of them are sound. I see God as designing relationships and wants us to be active participants in them. Of course there should be appropriate bounderies for interactions with the opposite sex, but we should by no means avoid them and then expect God to magically drop Mr or Mrs Right into out laps (which seems to be the general idea of many Christian authors). There are some good resources out there though The Boundless website is excellent and The Guys and Girls Guides to Marrying Well are great too. Thanks again.
September 10, 2009 at 1:18 pm |
JMH85
I hope this blog of mine provokes the right kind of questioning vs. just blindly accepting IKDG as so many seemed to do initially.
As I say in one of my entries, many times “kissing dating goodbye” leads to one learning to avoid relating to those of the opposite sex vs. learning how to properly do it.
September 12, 2009 at 11:58 pm
That is the thing, though. I don’t think anybody accepts IKDG blindly…why would anybody do that? It’s natural to question things, mull them over in your mind, and decide what is best for yourself. It’s not the Bible; you can pick and choose what fits your life. All Harris is offering is advice using his point of view as an example. His view of courtship isn’t a cult or something; just an idea.
The gist of the book is to come away from the “normal” kind of dating that normally doesn’t work all too well…and then he encourages a different way of going about relationships that he believes is a better way. No two romances are going to be alike, and he knows that.
Do you know people who have blindly accepted his doctrine or something? Where does this idea come from, if not? And have you ever read “When God Writes Your Love Story” by Eric and Leslie Ludy? I consider it better than Harris’ books. If you’ve read it, what do you think of it?
September 15, 2009 at 8:17 am |
Hey again Steve,
As you know, my friend Rob and I maintain a blog focusing on the application of Bible truth in the lives of Christians. We once wrote an blog entry on dating, which was how I originally heard of your site. I linked to that article in my comment above. I think the Jessica that commented on our dating post is the same Jessica that commented here, so I thought you might be interested to read Jessica’s comments on our dating post and our reply to her comments.
Jessica’s comment may be found here:
http://appliedtruthandinterest.blogspot.com/2009/01/what-is-dating-anyway.html
Our reply, which was too long to be done in comments, may be found here:
http://appliedtruthandinterest.blogspot.com/2009/09/reply-to-jessica-on-dating.html
I hope this is interesting and/or useful to everyone here.
Be blessed,
John
September 16, 2009 at 8:42 am |
John David Blair
Thanks for sharing these links. I will take a look at them.
Steve
January 1, 2010 at 8:46 pm |
This is a great site and I just stumbled across it…and I’ll be reading more of what you all have written in the next few days…but here’s my review on the book at Into the Book, just to prime the pump…looking forward to diving into this discussion!
http://www.intothebook.net/2009/03/i-kissed-dating-goodbye-joshua-harris.html
January 1, 2010 at 9:35 pm |
Drew
Welcome to my blog. Thanks for the compliment.
As the name implies, I believe there is both wisdom and foolishness in “kissing dating goodbye.” Unfotunately too many people have almost blindly embraced this “alternative” without analzying what is right for their situation.
Also, “kissing dating goodbye” has caused various problems but those who promote it are reluctant to share these problems
I am glad you are willing to take a look at what is said here.
February 2, 2010 at 5:27 pm |
Outstanding site. You have gained a new reader. Please maintain the fabulous posts and I look forward to more of your amusing writings.
February 4, 2010 at 10:30 am |
Jaime
Welcome to my blog and thanks for your compliment.
I am assuming that you have read through my older blogs posts. I have already said a lot of what I feel I have to say on this subject but as I occasionally get new thoughts I will post new entries.
I am glad you are enjoy reading my blog.
Thanks again.
September 13, 2009 at 9:09 am |
Jessica
Welcome to my blog.
Have you seen my entry about the “kissing dating goodbye” fad?
http://ikdg.wordpress.com/2008/12/01/one-persons-historical-account-of-the-kissing-dating-goodbye-fad/
Reading this account it sure seemed like a lot of people blindly or pretty much blindly accepted this.
In some churches, questioning what leadership says is looked down upon. I have seen that in various groups I have been involved with. When that is the case, people seem to blindly accept it and either don’t see, or are intimidated by the culture to bring up the problems.
If you read some of my other blog entries you will see where I show how Josh Harris has seemed to ignore the problems that have occurred with this approach that has been in place since 1978 in the church where he is now Sr. Pastor.