A Critique on the “Kissing Dating Goodbye” & “Courtship” Practices
This is my attempt to share some of my thoughts on “kissing dating goodbye” and “courtship” practices. I hope to give a balanced presentation. If nothing else I hope to encourage people to think about the concept and decide for themselves what is most important for them in their situation.
Here are the topics that I have written about so far:
Introduction:
Starting My Blog: Should I Kiss Dating Goodbye or Kiss That Book Goodbye?
General Thoughts on Courtship/Groups:
Does Only Dating Have Defects? Courtship/Groups are Defect Free?
Black & White Thinking: Courtship Approach?
“One Size Fits All?” and Courtship/Groups
Are People Still Kissing Dating Goodbye?
Kissing Dating Goodbye Is “Harmful”: A Respected Christian Author’s View on Non-Dating/Courtship
Did Joshua Harris “Forget” His Own Church’s History With Courtship/Groups?
Examples of Foolishness That Can Happen With “Kissing Dating Goodbye” NEW ENTRY 4/18/08
Josh Harris:
Josh Harris’s “Updated” View on Courtship/Groups
Josh Harris’s View On People Using His Book Legalistically
Another Look at Joshua Harris’s “Updated” Views on Kissing Dating Goodbye
What Another Leader In Sovereign Grace Ministries Teaches About Courtship & Dating: Brett Detwiler
Other Thoughts:
“Sovereign Grace” & Courtship: A Contradiction?
Courtship: Extending Parents “Protection” Beyond Home Schooling?
Issac & Rebekah’s Story: Proactive or Passive?
Universal Courtship: If so, would you be here?
A Favorite Story About The Need to Think for Yourself
A Single Man’s Struggle: Does The Courthship/Group Approach Help or Hinder?
Amazon.Com Readers Comments About the Book
You can email me at:
IKDGBnot at Yahoo.com
April 30, 2008 at 9:43 pm
It was my observation at our SGM church that the attitudes Josh Harris preached against in “Courtship Smourtship” were alive and well…and this was at least 2 years after he preached that sermon. Actually, “alive and well” wouldn’t do it justice. The paranoia about male-female interactions and the idea that “guarding one’s heart” meant running the other direction in the face of ANY sort of attraction - those attitudes were stronger and more pervasive than ever at the SG church we attended.
I don’t think any of the folks knew of Harris’ sermon. Or, if they had, by that time they’d taken his ideas and run with them to such an extent that they’d turned the courtship system into some sort of foolproof immorality-and-heartbreak-prevention-system.
Honestly, I believe that at our SG church, anyway, courtship was more about parents who wanted to control every aspect of their children’s lives than it was about actual purity. Purity may have been one of these parents’ well-intentioned goals for their kids, but purity can be accomplished in other ways, like equipping young adults to MAKE GOOD DECISIONS, rather than setting up a bunch of stringent rules for their kids to follow…and a weird artificial process for finding a mate.
I think what disgusted me the most was to watch people’s responses to the one successful courtship at our church that had actually ended in marriage. Everybody thought that this couple had lived out the absolute ideal. Yet (and granted, I could be wrong, as I did not know this girl that well) I got the distinct feeling, from my position as an observer, that the girl in this couple was woefully ill-prepared for marriage to the young man. She seemed very stiff and uncomfortable whenever the two of them were together in public. I can’t imagine what it must have been like for her, to go from living with her parents (she was about 20, had never been to college and had never held a real job aside from giving piano lessons to some of the other kids from church) to - within a period of about 3 months - having gone through a whirlwind courtship with someone she’d hardly spent any time alone with, to being engaged, to getting married to him.
I should probably quit this rant. But courtship and the legalistic excesses that I witnessed are subjects that really get me hot under the collar, almost more than anything else within SGM. There are extremes that NOBODY could ever address in a single sermon.
May 3, 2008 at 5:31 pm
I agree with the dangers of legalism and parents being overly protected of their children. I am not one of those. I simply see, in the teenage girls that I work with, examples of taking the opposite approach and know that this doesn’t work either.
My goal is to help families find a healthy balance - not hiding your daughters away until you find a suitable husband- simply helping young people feel empowered to make good decisions related to dating, relationships, etc. We feel that it is our job to equip our kids to live in the real world and when the time come to launch them to be productive adults. (We have now done this 5 times with great results)
Thanks for challenging me to think beyond where I have been.
May 3, 2008 at 11:09 pm
Cindy
Thanks for your compliment on this. My goal here is to get single Christians ant their parents (for younger singles) to think for themselves what part of this is wisdom and what part is foolishness vs. just taking a herd mentality. There are times when it is wisdom and other times foolishness.
Kris
Thanks for your comment. I am also going to post your comment on the blog page you were commenting on.
May 8, 2008 at 1:28 pm
With four daughters and one son…we’ve found this topic challenging, to say the least, as they are all so different and unique. One may not show any (or little ) interest in the opposite sex at age 16….and another may seem to through themselves at the opposite sex, sneaking to see them, hiding encounters with them, texting, e-mailing, phoning, finding way to hook up when they are supposed to be doing x/y/z….etc….
We’ve chosen the “no dating” approach, but do strongly encourage mixed group activities and close friendships. For a couple of ours, it seems to be a social pressure to “have someone”… “All my girlfriends have a boy friend…” and “I’m the only one left out”…is a very powerful, yet shallow, motivation. And, no matter how much you attempt to uncover and review at the real reason(s) for one “wanting a friend” of the opposite sex, with a couple of our kids, this draw / need / pressure is great.
One of the most difficult factors to deal with is the fact that so many parents have seemingly little or no restrictions in the area of boy-girl relationships….and our kids then feel they are “the only ones” not allowed to do what they want, when they want, with whom they want…etc…
Where’s the real balance?
Fathers….who do you want your 16 year old daughter(s) kissed by? Who do you want them snuggling with? How many young men do you want to enjoy these types of moments with your daughter(s) before they identify the man for their lifetime (spouse)? Are you comfortable with your 15 and 16 years old daughters being intimately handled (I’m not necessarily meaning physically /sexually touched, but kissed passionately / snuggled with / cuddled with / held close in intimate ways) ? Where is your comfort zone as a dad? How are your daughters to hold “a line” at any one point in this type of intimate activity. A kiss can be a pretty potent and powerful thing!
Josh’s book really isn’t all that out of line in my mind, but maybe you’ll disagree.
Respectfully….and with great love for my daughters…
jeff
May 8, 2008 at 4:33 pm
Jeff
Thanks for your comments. The “kissing dating goodbye” (for a season) might be appropriate for your daughters at their age. As they mature the approach should change.
Have you read some of of my posts such as “One Size Fits All?” My problem with “kissing dating goodbye” is that I have seen it pushed on much older single adults. Harris was young when he wrote about what worked for him. I don’t understand why so many think that what worked for him should be applicable to all ages. Harris also fails to acknowledge the history and problems with the system he promotes.
Unfortunately Joshua Harris doesn’t make this point in his book. One would think that it applies to all ages etc. Harris also doesn’t distinguish between doing things occasionally with someone of the opposite sex as a friend vs. a longer term relationship.
In summary, I think that there is both wisdom and foolishness in the concept. Unfortunately Harris left out the foolish aspects of his book.
May 9, 2008 at 7:57 am
Thank you for your response. Foolish is a very potent word… One may certainly disagree with someone else’s position(s), but to call them foolish might be a bit over the top. Maybe?
I’m certainly not the last word on dating / intimate relationships / romantic involvements / etc….but it is unequivocally clear to me that one’s heart must be wholly focused on the Lord and His will for their lives before one should allow themselves to enter “a friendship” that goes beyond the everyday general friendship encounter. Guarding one’s heart romantically is only done well as one’s heart is given over to the Lord, completely, without reservation.
I guess one needs to tailor their approach to the individual…with regard to boy-girl / man-woman relationships…especially as they are maturing in their teens and are still under the authority / responsibility of their parents.
His Peace,
Jeff
May 9, 2008 at 4:14 pm
Jeff
Foolishness might be a potent word but was the opposite of wisdom. I am not sure what else I would call foolishness when I see older single adults in their late 20’s and older that are afraid of each other. This includes these single adults not being able to have general friendship encounters. Hence the term wisdom or foolishness. I am also asking in the title if it is wisdom or foolishness.
Also, when one looks at the history of this approach and how it was implemented to extremes foolish sure seems an appropriate word. I can also think of some extreme words for Harris not sharing the defects of his approach and the historical problems of his approach.
Tailoring one’s approach is quite appropriate. If nothing else, this blog will help someone think and decide what is right for them in their situation vs. copying a system that worked for a specific 19 year old male for his personal situation. Too many people have just accepted this as the better way without thinking it through; this especially seemed to happened right after the book was published and the “fad” it created.
June 14, 2008 at 12:44 am
I think Joshua Harris is just being pro to God and so all of his principles depended on His will.
June 15, 2008 at 12:29 am
Yamii,
Could you please clarify what you mean by, “so all of his principles depended on His will”?
June 16, 2008 at 6:14 am
Oh sorry, I misunderstood… hehehehe.. God bless!
June 18, 2008 at 9:20 am
I have five daughters (and three sons, but the emphasis seems to be on the daughters here for some odd reason.) They are allowed to date. They have also been prepared with talks and our examples. The younger ones also have the examples of their older siblings.
Two of my daughters are married. We love both of our sons in law with all our hearts. We wouldn’t, however, have chosen these men to be our daughter’s husbands! It would have been pure arrogance on our part to suppose we could have chosen better husbands for our daughters than they would have been able to choose for themselves. Seriously, we’re good, but we’re not *that* good.
Now, our son is in a serious relationship but everyone in the family right down to the grandparents simply loves this girl.
Quote from Jeff [quote] Fathers….who do you want your 16 year old daughter(s) kissed by? Who do you want them snuggling with? How many young men do you want to enjoy these types of moments with your daughter(s) before they identify the man for their lifetime (spouse)? Are you comfortable with your 15 and 16 years old daughters being intimately handled (I’m not necessarily meaning physically /sexually touched, but kissed passionately / snuggled with / cuddled with / held close in intimate ways) ? Where is your comfort zone as a dad? How are your daughters to hold “a line” at any one point in this type of intimate activity. A kiss can be a pretty potent and powerful thing!
[/quote]
Jeff, there are times when a parent needs to trust their children and trust the things they were taught sunk in. This is also the time they’re being entrusted to drive; these are unnerving times for parents. Mixed in with that is a healthy repulsion to think of our children as sexual beings. I bellieve this natural repulsion is protective but, again, unnerving.
June 19, 2008 at 10:24 pm
DB
Welcome to the blog. You make some good points. Teenagers do need to grow and learn some things. Maybe training wheels and guidance are important but they do need to grow up.
Steve
July 11, 2008 at 4:54 pm
The Lord showed me long ago — when you read a book, remember it is the writers personal tesitimony — what happened when they sought the Lord for His wisdom concerning their situation. He is a personal God. When we preach our personal convictions as biblical truth, it is legalism. God’s will is the picture, the outline the Word of God, and He will personally guide us as to what colors to fill it in with. I know that people are so excited when they see God work so miraculously in their lives, that they want to “help” others to be blessed too. In that excitement, and maybe sometimes, pride, they may be too quick to tell other’s how it’s done.
July 15, 2008 at 4:04 pm
Some people might enjoy reading a MARRY romp through the Bible:
Biblical Ways of Knowing She’s The One. my tongue in cheek view of Biblical relationships.
http://www.savvysinglechristian.blogspot.com/2007/09/biblical-ways-of-knowing-shes-one
I posted some comments throughout some of your posts. I’m glad you’re talking about this.
July 16, 2008 at 9:50 pm
Savvy D
Welcome to my blog and thanks for your comments. When I get time I am going to take a look through your blog more.
Steve
July 20, 2008 at 7:56 pm
Kris,
I’m a member of the SG church in Gaithersburg, and was in the congregation when Josh’s famous “Courtship Smourtship” was preached. I know Josh personally, and I just want you to know that he has a heart for the Gospel above all things. While the result of “courtship” has been a list of arbitrary rules and regulations that bind people seeking a mate, it was never intended that way. It was (I believe) intended as an example of what a God-honoring relationship should be, NOT as a formula for how things must be done. Also, I gave my life to Christ in the church, and there is no other place I’d rather be.
With that said, here at ground-zero, the EXACT things that were being preached against were hard at work, and to a large extent still are. Male/Female interactions reached the point of being so awkward that the thought of getting into a serious relationship can seem almost unbearable. Legalism about the whole “courtship” process takes some of those pressures to the extreme. Most of it really is nothing more than the socially acceptable platform for gossip and meddling in the business of others, all done under the guise of guarding hearts, purity, and the like.
I know of several relationships that were under excessive pressure, and one taken to the brink of ending because of what went on. Someone very close to me swore to NEVER enter into a relationship with anyone from the church because of the legalism that surrounds relationships, and when this person finally did (with another member of the church), the relationship stayed completely hidden from sight for months, and when it did come to light it did so only under the watchful eyes of mature people and pastors. All others were litterally forced out.
There is a useful example here. I was told to my face to tend to my own biz (which I gladly did). This couple had no problems because they sought wise counsel from pastors and mature people, and made it very clear that the nosy people around them had best find something else to amuse themselves with. So you can certainly stand up for yourself when someone becomes the “uninvited guest” in your relationship.
July 21, 2008 at 12:57 am
Derek
Thanks for your comment and sharing about the situation at the Sovereign Grace Ministries “flagship” church. It is sad that things that Josh Harris taught against and tried to correct with a few messages are still significant problems in his church.
This just goes to show that a few messages aren’t nearly enough to correct problems that have developed in the culture over years. I am sure Joshua Harris means well and meant well.
Thanks again.
Steve
July 23, 2008 at 8:10 pm
Well one thing is definite, Harris’s heart is in the right place, I am only coming up for 18 myself so I do not claim to be an expert, but I have seen The havok lots of dating within a youth group can acheive and I have no doubt that some of the principles he teaches could have been a huge Help. For while I tryed to help the situation and remind people that wisdom was required however it didn’t work out for the best and put the youth group under alot of stress and division. However the legalistic nature by which some people take this book is ridiculous. Despite the book having no publicity in scotland I myself have felt a bit of a sting from the same views.
In my church I have been friends with a girl since … I was something like 6 days old. and we have literally grown up together… but some of those in the church have seen us having conversations without other people there (oh shock horror <_<
and rumours are a common symptom.
I myself hold to the dating philosophy that for every rule thats made there are so many exceptions that the rules become pointless in the end. And so use guidelines and proverbial rules that I handle with what little wisdom I have and the wisdom that I nick from God. I learn my boundaries and I avoid situations that will cause me to fall but do not avoid woman.
To be honest wisdom is one of the most vital components to a successfull relationship… which is why teenagers usually … fail. And why it should be dealt with properlly, but not avoided.
Daniel Kelly
danielskelly@talktalk.net