I know it has been a little while since I made an entry but I am not one to just keep posting unless I have something to say.
I was reading some comments on another blog called SGMSurvivors (www.sgmsurvivors.com) and someone posted the following link:
http://audio.kingswaymedia.cc/pdf/4GettingReady.pdf
If you download this pdf file it indicates it is the handout for a message given by Brent Detwiler at “The Summit Men’s Retreat” on September 21-23, 2006. He is calling the message “Getting Ready” as in getting ready for courtship.
For those who don’t know, Brent Detwiler isn’t just a another pastor in Sovereign Grace Ministries. He is in the higher leadership of Sovereign Grace including at times having responsibility for oversight of a number of churches. Thus this teaching shouldn’t be regarded as the teaching of just one of the regular SGM pastors but by someone in upper leadership.
Just like I have commented before on Josh Harris’s books, this handout has both wisdom and foolishness.
Listed below are some of points Brett Detwiler teaches about Courtship/Dating that caught my attention. I have inserted my comments below each “point.”
- Courtship is not for fun.
If courtship isn’t fun I wonder what it should be. Should it be mundane or a chore? Sure it should be taken seriously and will be some work but shouldn’t a couple have fun exploring whether they are a good match for each other? Is this a good way to start a marriage? I question of the wisdom of wanting to get married to someone that I can’t even have a fun experience with.
- Dating is about personal gratification and an end in itself. It brings all kinds of temptation to sin.
It looks like Detwiler is convinced that someone can’t date without it including all of the above. It is one thing to promote or think that “courtship” is a superior or more holy than dating. It is another thing to make a generalization like this.
I know of couples that have dated and wasn’t about the above. It was done with integrity. I can’t believe Detwiler’s audacity to make this judgment about dating.
At least Detwiler is out and open about his beliefs vs. writing a book that decries problems with dating but then claims they aren’t against dating.
- Keep Courtship Brief
-
- The longer a courtship goes the greater the likelihood a brother and sister will get involved emotionally and physically in ways that are inappropriate or sinful.
- By keeping the courtship brief (e.g. 3-6 months) you are trying to prevent this from happening. There is a balance between getting to know the person better and escalating temptation.
I have heard of couples that being under pressure to either get married or cut off seeing each other. Some couples in response to this pressure would get married before they had spent enough time to get to know each other and fully “explore” the possibility of a marriage. They would then get married and discover they weren’t as good of a match as they thought. Imagine being married to someone that isn’t the best of match when God wants this to be a commitment for life.
I guess if you listen to what Detwiler says here and other places in this handout, there is only one way to do things?
- Marriage will not prosper and may not survive apart from wholehearted involvement in a local church.
Though it always good for a couple to be involved in a local church I am not sure how one can make this generalization.
- Role oriented marriages – the reason why arranged marriages work.
- Man – priorities as a husband, father and provider
- Woman – priorities as a wife, mother, and home worker
(I added the underline and italics.)
Well at least Detweiler is being honest about this. He is promoting “arranged” marriages. It sounds like he wants the children’s parents to arrange a marriage. I wouldn’t want my parents deciding especially without my input on who my mate should be.
In conclusion this teaching may show the real heart and what is really behind what Sovereign Grace Ministries believes and teaches on courtship and dating including how bad they consider dating to be. At least it is nice to know what their views are so that one can make an informed decision. It is shocking that Detwiler teaches that there is only one way to do something.
Detwiler’s message may also show the real heart behind what Joshua Harris believes on courtship. Harris may claim that he doesn’t have strong views against dating but when one sees something like this it really makes you wonder if Harris’s views aren’t this extreme also. Of course there could be differing views in SGM.
8/31/09 Update
According to one blog, Brent Detwiler has stepped down from being a pastor in Sovereign Grace Ministries. You can read about it on the following links. The recent church plant he started has been cancelled. You can read about it on the following links:
http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/07/27/bye-brent/
Comments?
Tags: Betrothal, Brent Detwiler, C.J. Mahaney, Courtship, d, I Kissed Dating Goodbye, joshua harris, Sovereign Grace Ministires, Sovereign Grace Ministries
July 21, 2008 at 8:10 am |
That is breathtaking. This is legalism in its purest form. Legalism is not earning forgiveness through works (as C.J. defines it)… it is constructing a list of rules that are latched on to and used to guard against breaking biblical rules. The Pharisees came up with 40 definitions of “work” to be avoided on the Sabath. Likewise SGM comes up with 40 or so to guard against sexual sin in the process of finding a mate.
July 23, 2008 at 9:50 am |
Adam
Thanks for your comment and welcome to my blog. It is quite shocking to read how Detwiler thinks courtship can happen only one way. At least with this handout one can see where he really stands on these issues.
Steve
July 24, 2008 at 9:19 am |
Maybe Detwiler should do more research on the “success” of arranged marriages.
“One factor that you have to take into consideration immediately when
looking at this topic is that societies in which arranged marriages
continue to be acceptable could also have very different views on the
acceptability of divorce. Also, there might be less freedom for people
involved in such arrangements to express satisfaction or
dissatisfaction. Women, in particular, may be tied by fear of the
consequences if they express dissatisfaction. I think also it depends
very much on the educational and cultural level of the families and on
the society in which they live. An arranged marriage that works more
on a “blind date” system, with the young people having the final say
on acceptability is significantly different from the case of a forced
marriage against somebody’s (usually the woman’s) will, as will an
arrangement organised for two consenting adults versus and arrangement
in which one or both partners is still a child.”
http://answers.google.com/answers/main?cmd=threadview&id=176729
August 7, 2008 at 2:02 am |
Dear oh dear, I’ve written about this too. Arranging or trying to arrange a match has brought many a dissappointment and heartbreak to young Indian men and women in America. Please look at my India serious for some laughs, but also a serious look.
August 7, 2008 at 2:06 am |
It concerns me that dating is associated only with personal gratification of lustful desires. My parents dated respectfully under the watchful eye of her parents. I’m dating to find a suitable match and have been accused of having a death wish because I meet a man for dinner at Applebees. I might get to the dinner and discover that the person isn’t suitable for me. On occaision I did kiss them anyway and refused future dates because I knew it wouldn’t go anywhere.
September 20, 2008 at 9:57 am |
I find this appalling. We raised two beautiful daughters. Both dated. Neither definitely married the first young man they dated, BUT…… They both DID walk down the aisle as virgins – IN ALL ASPECTS- and their families are in the ministry. I find Brent’s focus more on control than the well being of his children. He also believes that unless one’s child is married, they are under their father’s authority until ……..(not their heavenly father’s but their earthly fathers)
No, I don’t want to see anyone suffer the pain of sexual sin. BUT where are we on teaching our children about gosip, slander, judgemental, critical spirits and attitudes. Those can cause as much or more irrepairable damage than the sexual sin. Maybe Brent needs to read PROVERBS 6 and see what the Lord really hates and sees as an abomination…
August 2, 2009 at 9:59 pm |
Guys, you should really do some more research and seriously consider contacting either Brent or one of the SGM pastors and see if you can discern what their real heart motivation is in promoting courtship. My wife and I have been in a SGM church for about 7 years now and we had a blast courting to find out if marriage was for us. I can see how it’s easy to come up with conclusions about Brent, but I think you have taken his teaching points and turned them into something that he wouldn’t condone. Best of luck in your quest for the truth about what God teaches on relationships. I would agree with Brent but don’t think that we would make any requirements or demands on anyone, you should feel at least some freedom in your choices based on what you think the bible communicates about these issues.
August 3, 2009 at 9:05 pm |
Josh
Welcome to my blog.
I wish you would go line by line and explain how I have misinterpreted his teaching points.
For example his teaching point says “courtship is not for fun.” How can what I said be misinterpreting what he said? I am glad you had fun with your period of courtship.
From what I have read about Brent and the church he use to lead, I am quite sure he “would make any requirements or demands on anyone” as you said.
You do know that Brent recently stepped down as pastor? See the following blog:
http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/07/27/bye-brent/
August 6, 2009 at 10:32 pm |
Just for the record
When Steve quoted my “would make any requirements or demands on anyone” the “rest” of that sentence said this…
I would agree with Brent but don’t think that we would make any requirements or demands on anyone, you should feel at least some freedom in your choices based on what you think the bible communicates about these issues.
Making this convo difficult because certain parts are dissected and used to make new sentences that sound entirely different. I just wanted to clear things up. Hopefully this post will make it past review.
August 12, 2009 at 7:58 pm |
Josh
Again it would be nice if you gave me examples of where you think I misinterpreted what Brent Detwiler said.
From what I have heard in most SGM Churches the courtship model is imposed on members. There really is no choice.
November 6, 2009 at 12:16 pm |
Steve,
Here’s the link for the conference. Better to listen and read with context…not just on this topic but also the broader subject of godly manhood.
http://www.crosswaync.org/summit2006/index.html
November 7, 2009 at 3:58 pm |
RC Davis
I didn’t think one could find a copy of the message online. I will listen to the message.
Thanks for posting this.
November 20, 2009 at 12:25 am |
Steve,
Last Sunday in the Parent-Teen Ministry (a.k.a. Resurgence) teaching time Pastor Chad Rogers spoke on “Do Hard Things: Purity”. He specifically addressed the issue of dating and made the point that as a local church they aren’t against dating per se, but rather are focused on imparting biblical wisdom for life through the adult years.
Last week on Kevin Swanson’s radio show the subject was “Single, and Wants to Be Married”. From http://generationswithvision.com/RadioShow.aspx?sid=1286 :
“Kevin Swanson interviews Alex Chediak, the author of an important new book on singleness for Christians. Alex provides some terrific wisdom for singles, but also some helpful advice for church communities who have an interest in launching young people into adulthood and marriage. The goal, of course is to get these young folks from singleness to marriage without sexual sin, emotional heartache, and excessive delay.”
It was a great interview and really expresses the heart of Brent Detwiler’s teaching and our ministry at SGC-Woodstock. I recommend taking 30 minutes to listen.
-RC