One a few different blogs that I read about Sovereign Grace Ministries:
www.sgmrefuge.com
www.sgmsurvivors.com
I have heard Carolyn McCulley’s name discussed and her book titled Did I Kiss Marriage Goodbye? mentioned. This book is written by an older single woman and is especially written for single women who may think that marriage has passed them by. She uses the term “kissed marriage goodbye” as reference to Josh Harris’s “kissed dating goodbye” book.
I happened to find a portion of her book online at Google Books:
Did I Kiss Marriage Goodbye?
Reading the book’s preface, I found something quite interesting. Carolyn McCulley talks about “eagerly devouring” Josh Harris’s I Kissed Dating Goodbye book when it first came out in 1997. She also talks about going through the book with a group of “girls” ages 13-35 and how they connected with it. Carolyn McCulley even says about the “kissing dating goodbye” book that she finally realized that this was what she should be doing.
She then talks about 7 years later (doing the math), most of the women in this bible study group were still surprisingly being single. Notice she says “surprisingly” still single. It is as if she is quite taken aback that most of these women didn’t get married or that in normal circumstances most of these women should have been married. Of course for the younger women in the group, that would only be 20, one wouldn’t expect them to be married. Still her tone is being quite surprised that most of these women weren’t married.
Looking at this one would ask, maybe there is a connection between these women “kissing dating goodbye” and “kissing marriage goodbye.” It certainly is something to consider. Is the fact that most of these women didn’t get married when Carolyn McCulley thought they should have been a cause and effect of “kissing dating goodbye” or are they just coincidental? That is, did “kissing dating goodbye” lead to this situation or as my title indicates cause these women to “kiss marriage goodbye?”
The book’s foreword was written by Josh Harris who authored the “kissing dating goodbye” book so was I doubtful that Carolyn McCulley would be critical of the approach Josh Harris championed. I obtained and read through the rest of the book and didn’t see where she even asked the question. Maybe she is ignoring the obvious? Maybe being so sold that “kissing dating goodbye” is the “superior alternative” to dating (as a lot who teach that approach seem to be) that seeing this type of connection would be impossible for her?
I do realize that in most Christian circles there are typically more single women than single men. With this type of situation, it is probable that at least some single women won’t get married but that wouldn’t lead to most not getting married as Carolyn McCulley observed happening with this group of single women.
For those who haven’t read my other blog pages, when I use the term “kissing dating goodbye” I am talking about the approach to single men and women that Josh Harris championed/promoted in his first book. Though it may have some application for teenagers, it many times has lead to older singles almost being “afraid” of those of the opposite sex. Usually in this type of environment, singles are told strongly encouraged to do activities with those of the opposite sex in groups.
Those who promote “kissing dating goodbye” typically are quick to point out the problems with dating but “forget” to mention the problems “kissing dating goodbye” has caused over the years. From what I have seen it leads to single learning to avoid relating with those of the opposite sex vs. learning how to. If you want more information on my thoughts on KDG, please see me other blog pages. I have no doubts that this culture where singles are afraid of each other makes it harder for at least some to marry. It could very well cause at least some singles to “kiss marriage goodbye. “
One other thought I have is those that the more one has
-
invested
in an approach like “kissing dating goodbye” such as with time and past opportunities the harder it is for one to see the problems with it. It is hard to admit that one is wrong. It is even harder to admit the problems when one has invested a lot and thus past up other means and opportunities.
This certainly raises some questions. I will be curious to hear what comments anyone has on this.
Tags: "Reach Out for Life", Betrothal, Carolyn McCulley, Courtship, Covenant Life Church, Covenant Life Criticism, defects of dating, Did I Kiss Marriage Goodbye, I Kissed Dating Goodbye, I Kissed Dating Goodbye Criticism, Josh Harris, Joshua Haris, joshua harris, Sovereign Grace, Sovereign Grace Criticism, Sovereign Grace Ministires, Sovereign Grace Ministires criticism, Sovereign Grace Ministries
October 6, 2009 at 1:16 pm |
Whether the book is right or not, I do know several women who have “kissed marriage goodbye.” A neighbor of mine is in her 60s, and she tells me that she has never been married, and, now, she fears that she never will be. Still another woman I know, who is 35, has suddenly realized that, if she does not marry within a few years, she will never have children. After waiting for years, this Christian woman is now so desperate to be married that she is flirting with a married man.
Kissing dating goodbye may have some value for young teenagers, but for adults, I have never personally seen it work. Most all the happily married Christian couples I know dated before getting married, and not just their spouse.
For me, the courtship approach involves too much waiting and not enough sowing. One of the most universally true principals of the Bible can be found in Galatians 6:7, which reminds us that “God will not be mocked.” this is because we reap what we sow. If you plant a sunflower seed, you can bet that you will not reap anything other than a sunflower. Similarly, if we sow nothing, then we reap nothing.
I wrote an article called “No Deposit; No return” at the ATI blog (http://appliedtruthandinterest.blogspot.com/2009/09/no-deposit-no-return.html) that expads on this reasoning, but I believe it to be especially true in dating. If you are waiting for a spouse to fall into your lap, then you have missed God’s design for our lives entirely. Absent some revelation from the Lord commanding you to wait for Him to deliver a spouse to you, if you sow waiting, then waiting is what you will reap. Lots of waiting. Anything else mocks the Lord’s design.
October 9, 2009 at 1:47 pm |
David
Thanks for posting another comment. I think we are in agreement that “kissing dating goodbye” is more appropriate for teenagers vs. older singles.
IMO, some of the things that “kissing dating goodbye” teaches younger singles almost need to be unlearned when one becomes more mature is ready for a mate. The other problem is that “kissing dating goodbye” many times leads to people learning to AVOID relating with those of the opposite sex vs. LEARNING how to relate.
An example of needing to unlearn things is someone’s interest in that of the opposite sex. “Kissing dating goodbye” says to avoid any romantic attachments since you aren’t ready for marriage. If one keeps that mentality then they are most likely to be “kissing marriage” goodbye.
Thanks again for your comment.
October 9, 2009 at 1:59 pm |
I agree – learning to relate to members of the opposite sex takes time, more for some and less for others, but always it takes some amount of time and investment. To assume we can go straight from avoiding relationships with the opposite sex into marriage is not only silly, it is a contradiction (and mockery) of God’s design.
I think the principal of reaping/sowing applies as much to datinbg as it does “faith healing” and every other area of our lives. We recently posted an entry on our blog along those lines called “God really does help those who help themselves” (see http://appliedtruthandinterest.blogspot.com/2009/10/god-really-does-help-those-who-help.html).
The point I am trying to impress on others is this: whether it is dating or any other facet of life from your finances to your job to your friendships, you won’t get something for nothing. God requires an investment of prayer, faith, obedience, and effort of us when answering our prayers. He does answer prayers and perform miracles, but God requires us to do our part here on Earth. That’s how he made the universe to work. God doesn’t need our efforts, but he does require them. Just examine the lives of the apostles for confirmation.
I highly recommend people carefully sow in this way in the area of dating if they want to reap the harvest of a happy marriage. To do nothing and expect everything from the Lord is to mick Him, and God does not respond to or tolerate mockery.
But that could just be me
October 16, 2009 at 12:46 pm |
John Blair
One thing I think that Josh Harris didn’t take into account with his book and how others apply it is that Josh Harris before he actually “kissed”dating goodbye he had done some dating and thus developed some relationship skills with those of the opposite sex. Also, listening to a few messages from Josh Harris, indicate that he was never on the shy side with women and didn’t need much work on learning how to interact with the opposite sex.
The problem is that a lot of people aren’t like Josh Harris. They haven’t had much interaction and need to develop over time certain relational skills. Sadly “kissing dating goodbye” stops this development from happening with a lot of singles and they also didn’t have the chance that Josh Harris had before his big decision.
Steve
October 22, 2009 at 9:58 am |
Here’s my personal thoughts. I’m a single, 21 year old college student who has never dated. I have been in group conversations and one on one conversations with people of the opposite sex. Group conversations tend to be more surface level. Why? You are with multiple people. There might be one or two people with whom you wouldn’t share things deeply. Also, you don’t get as much as a chance to talk. Now let’s look at one on one conversations. One on one conversations go deeper. I had two close friends who were girls. We were close because we spent one on one time together. There was no problem with it. I wasn’t pretending to be someone else or putting the relationship ahead of anything else. If I had listened to Jushua Harris, we would never had been close friends.
In Christ,
James Tuttle
January 13, 2010 at 1:44 am |
The ideas throughout Harris’ book should be adhered too at any age. The concept of putting “self” aside and allowing Christ to be center should be the utmost desire of every believer. “Dating” as is discussed in the book is just the spring board to which every other aspect of life should be yielded to God’s will. A yielded life would bring such glory and honor to God. Isn’t that what we were made for; to bring Glory to our God the Father. Did He not send his Son to die to reconcile the relationship between God and man? His love is so BIG for us, how would we dare to believe that if we put Him first in our lives that He would not withhold any good thing from us?
January 13, 2010 at 3:24 pm |
Daniel
Welcome to my blog.
I am not sure why you made this comment on this blog page but I would agree that that godly principles should be adhered to at any age and that would include those that Josh Harris outlines in his book. Realize that some of what Josh Harris shares in his book aren’t necessarily godly principles but are his way of doing something. One has to differentiatel.
When I have seen churches that require singles do things in groups at all ages I shake my head. There can be times when it is good to do things in groups but requiring this is something more designed for teenagers and not older singles.